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Transcript:
Greg Stewart (00:01.442)
Welcome to another BusinessTech Africa interview. And today I’m joined by the lovely Upuli de Abrew.
Upuli is one of the founding partners at Insight Consulting and has a history, a long history in technology and technology development. And today is a co-partner.
in a company that is not just South African based, it’s international based. So Upuli, welcome and thank you for the time just to chat to you. And I’d like to dive straight into it and say it’s great to speak to a woman in the IT industry who’s built up something significant as you have and tell us a bit about your background and what brought you to this place.
Upuli (00:55.255)
Sure, yeah, so thanks so much for having me. Yeah, lovely to be here and I love talking, but I’ll try and keep my answers fairly brief. Yeah, so I studied information systems at university and I think even before that, I was very fortunate in that I had parents, well, specifically my dad, who was very into technology.
In 1983, we had one of those IBM computers and he was really interested in programming. So that was kind of how I got into that. And then at university, I really discovered this love for information systems and what it meant. And so that became the career that I went into. And again, I think I was really fortunate to work for some great corporates with excellent programs for people straight out of university.
I had some wonderful mentors. And so I got into the data space and started the business really because I wanted to do what I did for one company for lots of different businesses. So yes, I had a great friend who was in the same field at the time. And so we started the business together. And the rest, as they say, is history.
Greg Stewart (02:16.686)
You were a business information or business intelligence manager and a SAP expert, is that correct?
Upuli (02:23.031)
Correct. That’s correct. Yes, I did work in SAP BI quite a bit and it’s come in very handy over the years. And being a business intelligence manager, I can see things from the customer’s perspective. So now that I’m a supplier, I remember all of that and bring that to bear on the solutions that we did have at InSight.
Greg Stewart (02:49.902)
So that’s in itself leads almost automatically into the whole data scenario and the whole data environment in IT and across all businesses today has become a very dynamic and rapidly changing space, I guess. And particularly with the development of AI and…
Data isn’t just data anymore, is it? It’s kind of become the lifeblood of industry.
Upuli (03:22.611)
Absolutely. I couldn’t agree more. And I think, you know, we’re just going to keep seeing more and more of that. And, you know, in the old days or in the past, I suppose your economic power, how much money you had dictated how wealthy you were. And now it’s really all about data. The data that organizations hold and how they use it is really what’s going to determine, you know, the power.
and the wealth. And I think that’s not just organizations, I think that’s people, I think that’s countries, pretty much everywhere. So it is obviously something that needs to be handled carefully because, you know, that with great power comes great responsibility kind of, and that’s just very true, especially when it comes to data.
Greg Stewart (04:13.678)
So in terms of the consulting that your company does, are you looking mainly at sort of enterprise data, data shaping, data analysis, and is that, how much of that today has been linked to AI systems in the clients that you deal with?
Upuli (04:36.735)
Yeah, that’s a huge question. I could probably write a book about it. But I think when we started the business, which turns 18 this year. So when we started the business, it was a business that was very focused on data and analytics. It was about helping people to do things faster, to get the data out faster. That business has evolved quite a bit. And with the changing landscape, I think
In my opinion, where we are going to go with AI and where we are already going is that the ability to create those analytics out of raw data is going to be taken over by AI. The thing that won’t be taken over by AI is the ability to ask the right questions. So data literacy becomes super important and that’s something we’re seeing a lot of our customers really invest heavily in.
And then also getting your data, making sure your data is clean so that the AI can do the analytics on it is also important. So our business has really shifted or is shifting away from just the analytics and data component to a lot more of the data preparation and a lot more of the business advisories services.
Greg Stewart (06:00.686)
So the business analytics that you’ve seen today, mean, my knowledge of this is I’m not a business analyst or a data analyst, but I do understand quite a lot of the development. A lot of the constraints that companies are having in terms of AI development is not just about training, although that’s a key thing. The other thing is the shape of that data and the actual
integration of the data into data sets that actually start to make sense and where the analytics and AI ability to analyse can start making a contribution towards improving efficiencies or whatever else they’re trying to improve. Are you seeing that customers are approaching data in a different way?
Upuli (06:53.751)
Probably not as much as they should. I’m definitely seeing a shift in that there’s a lot more, know, in the old days, data used to be owned by IT. And I think there’s a much bigger shift now towards data being owned by business processes, which is 100 % where it should be and which talks to what you’re saying because only the people who are
deeply involved in those business processes and have an understanding of those areas are going to be able to tell the tools to clean the data in a specific way, to apply these rules, to make sure that the data is in a format that will allow them to do their ultimate reporting and analytics. So, yeah, to answer your question briefly, I’m definitely seeing a shift from data being owned by IT and finance to
being owned by the business processes, which is fantastic because that really means that people are using the data to add value to their day-to-day decision making.
Greg Stewart (08:00.568)
Yeah, and that does make a big difference because what you’ve seen is you’ve finally seen a convergence of data where you had different silos of data sitting all over the place. I think for the first time, AI is probably part of the driving force behind that. But just in terms of general business analytics that you’ve seen…
people looking at a broader picture across the business rather than just, you know, accounts looking at accounts and sales looking at sales and production looking at a production. There’s a convergence of that data that is now creating a much higher level, I think of, as you say, adaptability and the business being able to actually read meaning out of that data.
Upuli (08:52.247)
And I also, I love this topic because I also think that what it’s allowed for the first time, you know, the really smart people that we work with, those, you know, heads of purchasing or, you know, those, our customers, they’re able to actually ask the questions and they’re quite complicated questions. And for the first time, we’re able to using AI and getting all that data together.
be able to answer those quite quickly. So, you know, it’s almost like you have this vision in your head, a dream in your head, and we’re at the point now where that’s really becoming a reality. So it’s almost like, I don’t know, I think it was Leonardo da Vinci or Michelangelo, one of them, if you see a block of stone, they don’t see the block of stone, they see the sculpture in there. And I think for the first time, you know,
the sculpting is actually happening from a data perspective as well. So yeah, it’s an amazing, exciting time to be alive and be in the world of data.
Greg Stewart (10:00.43)
That’s a lovely image you portray actually, seeing the sculpture in the stone. I remember when I, years back, I’d been involved in media, seems like for a whole lifetime. And when I first joined the Citizen newspaper, and I started asking questions about, know, we produce a newspaper with so many pages, so much advertising, so much editorial copy, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
and I went downstairs to our production area and I asked them, okay but what does it cost us to print each page? And nobody could answer that for me. It was…
And I’m talking about going back way before AR was around. we eventually got to a point after sort of months of messing around with this formula where we actually got to a point where we understood what it actually costs us to produce a single page, depending on the quantity of pages and how many people we were.
Greg Stewart (11:02.574)
newspapers we were printing and so on and that suddenly made a difference to our business in the sense that you know now we actually had a We had a measurement that made sense and we had a measurement where we could actually say well if we produce this newspaper with this amount of pages and that amount of copies and are we actually making a profit or not and that that was almost like a breakthrough thing for us because it
Greg Stewart (11:28.47)
It gave us a great ability to understand the business. And I think those kind of things nowadays are becoming far more commonplace and it is making a difference to how business is run.
Upuli (11:39.447)
But I mean, I think it’s such a lovely example because, I always say that AI can be your assistant, but you, by asking that question, how much does it cost to produce a page, you as the human being is posing the question to AI. And I think that’s the most interesting thing that it really becomes about what questions we ask, what questions we ask rather than
Upuli (12:09.217)
how we answer them because your AI and your tools and all the fancy stuff can answer you if you pose the right question. And you see it all the time now. I saw somebody on LinkedIn had developed a game in 10 minutes. Someone with no coding experience had developed a game in 10 minutes just by using the right prompts. AI went and did the actual work. And he said in his post, it’s not about how you build something, it’s about what you build. Yeah.
Greg Stewart (12:40.152)
Yes. So framing it basically in a business sense becomes the critical issue, I think.
Upuli (12:48.639)
Yeah, I was going to say, and I think as IT people, know, it changes, our mind-sets need to change because a lot of IT people are used to getting requirements and then delivering on that. But going forward into the future, those requirements are going to get, you know, punched into the AI and that’s going to deliver.
the solution. So the importance from an IT perspective really turns to that whole advisory, know, let’s let me use my experience and my knowledge of what we’ve done with other customers and what I know of the industry to actually advise you, the customer, or you, the business, you know, rather than, I know how to write this code. Yeah.
Greg Stewart (13:34.702)
Yes, and that’s another fascinating thing about this whole change is that job roles and functions are definitely going to be changing and altering and creating new jobs, new directions within businesses. so ongoing, especially at this point.
ongoing training and development is going to become a critical skill, not just for IT people, but for everyone who’s involved in whatever data or intelligence is happening within the business. Are you seeing businesses, you know, focus more on the training side of things?
Upuli (14:11.434)
Yeah.
Upuli (14:16.823)
I am. Again, I really think that there should be more focus on that, on upskilling the workforce. And I also think that there is a lot of anxiety about AI. And I think that anxiety, when I say about AI, I people worried about job security and things like that. And some people not worrying enough, right? Because you’re right, you have to retrain, you have to reskill.
And it’s very hard to even give career advice to teenagers anymore. So I have a 13 year old and a 12 year old and they constantly ask, what do you think I should be when I grow up? And I’m like, well, I don’t know what jobs they’re gonna be when you grow up. But what I can say is, that higher order reasoning, those higher order reasoning skills, regardless of whether you’re an IT or any job that you do, I think those are the skills that are going to
be a lot more necessary, the critical thinking, the problem solving, the empathy, you know, listening to others, trying to put yourself in their shoes and solving problems for them. Murray, I don’t know if I answered your question.
Greg Stewart (15:30.88)
You did you did and and but but your company actually? Provides training courses as well. You don’t just do the consulting you’ve got a range of training courses as well
Upuli (15:39.606)
Yes.
Yes, yes, we do. And we do we are focusing quite heavily not on the tech net, not we do technical training, obviously, but we’ve really started focusing quite significantly on the data literacy angle, because I think for anyone to get return on investment from any software that they implement, you know, AI enabled or not, you need to be able to ask those right questions and data literacy is really about
understanding or knowing what questions to ask and then when you get the answer being able to analyze that and maybe have further questions that will help you, guide you.
Greg Stewart (16:40.524)
So it’s quite fascinating from my perspective, having been around in the industry for a couple of years to see these things. And I’ve adopted a lot of these within my business processes. And I think there is that lack of training and focus on upskilling people. And I think the companies that stay ahead of that are going to have an advantage.
Upuli (17:06.964)
Yeah, 100%. And I also think that, you know, when it comes to AI, it doesn’t, it’s almost like I get companies or potential customers or even existing customers come to us and say, okay, well, we need an AI strategy, or how do we get AI ready? And you can incorporate AI into every daily task that you do, it can help you. So it doesn’t necessarily need to be this big bang approach where I need to get AI ready. I think that obviously does that there is an element of that that needs to take place. But there are a whole lot of quick wins that you can push through to help to use AI to make your job a lot more efficient. And I think people don’t consider that often enough. They think
I don’t have great data literacy skills in my organization. So I’ve got to put this whole big platform in place before I can actually use AI. But what they don’t realize is they could just incorporate AI into their business processes immediately, quite quickly, with the right training.
Greg Stewart (18:17.39)
Correct. Correct. And there are so many tools even for smaller businesses. I like focusing on smaller businesses because I think that’s where economic growth comes from. And there’s a lot of business tools out there. I I’m discovering new AI tools every single day. even in the media industry, things like transcribing services, AI transcribing services and so on, that are easy and cheap.
Greg Stewart (18:47.23)
and not out of reach of even smaller companies and they can certainly help with efficiencies and processes. So training becomes a critical and crucial role going forward, I think for business leaders and for staff.
Greg Stewart (19:06.84)
So talking about training, one of the things that surprised me because I get to engage with these development hubs and innovation hubs and there’s lots of them springing up all over the place and it’s fabulous to see. I was at one in Braamfontein recently that’s funded by a couple of the big corporate groups. I know the UJ has an innovation hub that we’ve done some coverage of in the past and so on. And with all these hubs and opportunities to learn and even, you know, lot of free learning that’s available out in the ether, I guess, today, why do you think it is that there are still so few women such as yourself, bright, smart, you know, leading the charge?
We still seen that lack of women entering the IT and information space.
Upuli (20:13.941)
Yeah, I get asked that question in one way or the other quite a bit. But I think, and I think there are lots of reasons and I think it’s like, you know, those, it’s cumulative factors. You know, obviously, the obvious one is that society still, you know, has gender.
Upuli (20:37.219)
based roles. And I think it’s hard to get away from that with your peers. And I’ll go back to my kids as an example, know, one is a girl and one is a boy. They both had the exact same opportunities, exact same access to technology. My son is super interested in coding and, you know, does that, does a lot of that and my daughter can’t be bothered. So, and it’s not because they are, you know, one is more intelligent than the other or anything like that. It is because she’s surrounded by people for whom that’s not very interesting. And so she doesn’t really focus on it. So I think that that’s one thing and that’s the gender bias to a certain extent. then, skipping ahead, I was very fortunate to have very strong female role models in industry. So I had two very strong female bosses.
When I was in corporate and that really showed me how to be a woman and still be able to deliver as well as, or better than, any other male in my team and the team that I was in. And that you could mesh the two together. You didn’t have to turn into a man or be more like a man to be able to make these deliveries.
So think that mentorship is super important. And if I look at our organization, and we were talking about this the other day, our core management team is 50-50, it’s split 50-50 between men and women. And I don’t think you find that in a lot of organizations, but if I look at all of those women, they are all such strong mentors and have been mentored by other strong females. So I think that that is… a massive thing in when the youth come out of university or even as they come out of school to kind of create opportunities where that female mentorship can take place.
Greg Stewart (22:46.062)
So, where too from here for Upuli.
Upuli (22:52.567)
I have some fairly exciting projects in the pipeline. And one of them is a gamified data literacy project. So I don’t know if you’re familiar with Duolingo, but a lot of us love to use that for language learning. we’ve developed a gamified platform for data literacy. So that is about to launch.
And it’s pretty exciting. I’m really excited about that. And we have a few more other projects. So I think this year, I really want to focus around building products that solve problems. There might be small products like survey tools with AI-generated insights, or there might be massive products. we’ve got one big one that we want to build. We’ve got the gamification, and we’ve got a few smaller ones.
So that’s what excites me. So I’m gonna be focusing quite a bit on that. And then you mentioned the international business, just growing that. That’s gonna be quite a strong focus for us. We wanna make sure that we do spread our wings. And one of the nice things about growing that international business is we’re making sure that the work comes back to South Africa. So we have feet on the ground in Europe.
but then the actual development work comes back to South Africa. in that way, we’re creating jobs in South Africa, keeping that going while still building a business out in Europe. So lots of things. I don’t think I’m going to be retiring anytime soon.
Greg Stewart (24:36.876)
Well, I hope not because I think that South Africa needs more inspirational women leaders and particularly in your field. I think that the projects that you mentioned sound very exciting and we look forward to engaging with you on those in the future. And who knows, maybe it’s time that BTA found a partner to push some female mentorship programs and training programs and literacy programs, data literacy programs. And maybe there’s an opportunity for us to collaborate on that going into the future. But I want to thank you for your time. And there was something else that you were about to say.
Upuli (25:29.608)
I just said that would be really exciting. think, yeah, it’s definitely something we would love to do. please, let’s definitely chat.
Greg Stewart (25:36.59)
Well, we will certainly explore that going forward and I’m sure our BTA listeners would love to know more about some of these exciting projects that you’ve got going. And I really look forward to having future chats with you about those things. But thank you for your time and thank you for your insights. And I hope that this is a small inspiration for someone out there in the ether who watches this and decides that they’re going to become the next woman IT entrepreneur. And good luck to yourself and your colleagues in growing your business going forward.
Upuli (26:20.673)
Thank you. Thanks so much. Thank you for the opportunity. I really appreciate it.
